Ep 18: Looking through new eyes with John Williams

Show notes.

In this episode, I sit down (for the second time) with John Williams for a chat that feels less like an interview and more like two humans figuring things out together. We cover everything from therapy and personal growth to how tech is changing the way we connect (for better or worse).

John opens up about the wins he’s celebrating, why joy isn’t just a luxury, and the magic of giving himself permission to just be. We also dive into self-worth, personal space (especially as a parent) and the wild ride of navigating identity beyond just the roles we play.

Keywords

personal growth, therapy, relational skills, technology, celebrating wins, self-awareness, emotional intelligence, life transitions, joy, connection, personal growth, self-exploration, worthiness, parenting, identity, beginner's mind, journey, authenticity, self-care, mental health.

Transcript

Rick (00:13.08)

Thank

Rick (00:28.674)

John Williams, welcome to the podcast again. Rick Watson, we know each other's surnames now. think we were episode four, I think. When was that? It about six months ago. Is it that long? Yeah. Yeah, right. Welcome back. Thanks, nice to be here. Yeah.

We're in a new location. We are in a new location. And the new location has caused some small headaches. Yeah, we've just been doing a bit of tech MacGyver. So Joel and I and Finn moved house yesterday, no, Monday, so two days ago, and got the base level internet connected and thought it would be OK until the NBN's connected in a week. And...

Today's efforts have proved otherwise. Yeah. I don't think the weather has helped that storm might've soaked some underground infrastructure. Yeah. No, it's pretty flaky, but I think we're in business. Yes, we are. We've MacGyvered this year, haven't we? Or you have. Let's do a little check-in. Let's do it. As we sit here right now. How are you? What's happening in your...

physical, mental, emotional worlds. Yeah. Well, it's very interesting because as soon as we press record and as soon as we started interacting live, yeah. heart rate up, like, you know, we've been, we've been hanging out for what about an hour, an hour and a half, guess, just catching up and messing with tech. and as soon as we press record and as soon as I know that this is going out into the world, there's a little

body reaction there, which is interesting. And I'm sure that'll pass. Mentally, yeah, just relaxed. been a nice little buffer. The drive down here was pretty intense. Big, big storm. Big storm on the highway. Very glad I didn't ride the bike. That would have been pretty miserable and unsafe. Actually, I would have just had to stop. It was terrible. So...

Rick (02:44.142)

So yeah, just kind of a nice buffer from that. And, you know, first thing this morning when I woke up, I'm just in the habit of kind of checking in on what's happened overnight in the business. so now I've kind of got some distance from that, which is nice. I mean, that's a choice, but you know, it's nice to be in the head space and emotionally. Yeah, life's good. Life's good. I'm sure we'll talk about some of the stuff I've been up to, but just kind of.

very full at the moment, but full by choice and full of things I'm choosing. I like that. It's made me smile. Yeah. How about you? So yeah, it feels like we've been packing up our old house for the last three months. We haven't, we kind of have, but so physically the body is smashed. I feel like I've hiked for three days. You know, that aching in your feet.

The old titanium hips give me a bit of love. Lowel backs give me a bit of love. So yeah, the body's feeling the...

up and down stairs, moving furniture and getting everything organized side of life at the moment. And there's another part of me that's like, fuck yeah. Like I love being functional. I love being able to do shit because there's been times when I haven't. So there's a little kind of maybe like a bit of teenage part of me that's like, yeah, just like being able to move shit and live shit and fix shit. And yeah, yeah. So it's been really satisfying on that front. But now we both got out of bed this morning. We're just like,

Holy shit, we're old. So that's the physical, mental just feeling literally stoked to be in this house. Like it's a completely different energy and one that we're really excited to be in. So mentally we're walking on top of the water, you know, it's taken a while.

Rick (04:48.716)

It's been a bit of a process. Yeah. Yeah. And both of us in different ways, but for me personally, just, my old house that was bought through the buyback here in New South Wales only settled last week. So even just that chapter that's been three years, in the Feb. So it's just, there's, I'm noticing the relief of closing some chapters and, noticing the

the lack of like low key anxiety and concern that I had when they were open. You know? Yeah. And they become that sort of stuff.

It sort of becomes part of the background smell and you stop noticing it until it's gone. definitely. So I think part of life this year is trying to pay more attention to what's there and what I'm grateful for, but also what's not there. And I think this is a good example of what's not there. He's just that low key unease like.

not solid foundation, little bit of housing uncertainty, financial, not knowing what's going on. Like that stuff that we all have different responses to. I'm happy to say that that's quietened down. So mentally feeling stoked about that shit. And it's like, I'm happy to ride the white water, but I'm not so happy to get off the river sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.

And emotionally just peaceful. I got the dog snoring. I was just, I was just going to comment. That's, that's not Rick and I heavy breathing. That's the dog snoring at our feet. Good on you Rocky. thunderstorm. He's, he's had a rough morning. So, any little yips and stuff he's always pops up on the podcast. so yeah, overall.

Rick (06:53.774)

stoked to be in this new space and stoked to have you back. I think we were talking over coffee and just kind of thinking about what I, the idea around having some people back on because the first podcast is kind of around like, who are you? How are you? How do you know yourself? What are the patterns? What are the good? What are the bad? What are you alone? Like that's that real sort of, know.

as much as you can get out in an hour, an hour and a half. And I think inviting guests back on, what I wanted was more of an exploration of like...

What does life look like now? Once you've learned a little bit about yourself, what happens next? What do you do with that shit? And I think that's super interesting because sometimes we can be in a stressed place and be like, I've got to sort this shit out. But if we can get to that equilibrium or our footing is on solid ground, then what? And I find this super interesting because a lot of guys contact me with Circle and they're like,

I feel like circles when you're broken, I have to, it has to be something wrong to come to circle or therapy or whatever. But I, I'm noticing that the change in the growth that can happen from a solid foundation of not being in that stress state or that desired state. And that's what I'm getting at with all this story is the repeat guests having you back on is like,

It's continuing the chapter of like, what's, what's next, where are you heading? What have you learned and how is that going to change what, what rolls out moving forward? Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't have a plan, but that's the rough kind of direction. Yeah. Nice. Can I pick up on something you said there about this idea of you go to circle because something's broken. And I think this is also reflected in often how we think about, you know, things like therapy or whatever. Right.

Rick (09:04.418)

And get this sense, I'm interested to hear what you say, like...

Rick (09:11.414)

It's also nice to have a space and where you can actually celebrate what's gone right. 100%. And those spaces, I think for a lot of us are pretty rare. Yeah. You know, where, where

Rick (09:35.212)

Yeah, you can say, you know, this bit and this bit and this bit of my life, I'm just I'm just smashing it. mean, I'm enjoying it. Blah, blah. It's not that accepted, is it? It's not. No, it's not. Which is a shame. And it's and I think you and I have talked about this before. It is difficult in a in a space like I haven't been to your circle. But, you know, I imagine it's it's challenging for people.

You know, you go around the circle and there's a check-in and people are throwing all sorts of heavy shit out that they're dealing with. And then it comes to you and it's like, my life's great. I'm doing this, I'm doing this. that's culturally, that's I'm glad you brought it up because we have a code. One of the pieces in that code is...

It is essential that you speak to your wins and celebrate your wins. of what's going on in the room. Because what we found in the early days that were men felt bad when there was other people were sharing and they had some heavy stuff. And then they did what you just said of like, dude, I'm fucking killing it. And this has gone great. This has worked out. You know, there's little wins here and there that hold those back because they didn't want to, you know,

impact the guys that were in their stuff. And we're like, no, no, no. Not only is that important, we're gonna write that shit into our code. But I think that's just, I'd like that to be a part of life anyway. And that's what I think this second round of having people back on, it's like, what are we celebrating? Where's the adventure? Where's the joy? What's going great? know?

And hopefully if there's a message that gets filtered through on this, it's like, celebrate your fucking wins. Yeah. You know, it's okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick (11:32.568)

So when we spoke, we were kind of three chords away through our first year of study. We were. Yeah. We both passed, I believe. We both passed. I passed. I scraped in a little late. I was a bit late on my therapy hours, but I got the waiver through, not the waiver, I did it, I just did it late. yeah, Year two? know you're...

You signed up, think, the day that you got the offer. I've still got it still on my to-do list, but I'm going back. Cool. Yeah. How was the rest of the year and the whole year as a complete, like, what was that experience like for you?

Rick (12:17.024)

My plan or my intention about

not making any decisions about whether to continue, for example, worked beautifully. Yeah, I very deliberately and quite comfortably just sat in. That what it was certainty, right? And I had.

So yeah, as you mentioned, we did the residential of five, five days. That was what November sometime. Yep. That was a really interesting experience. I had a couple of pivotal conversations there with some of our, you know, year level seniors. because, you know, sort of professionally and vocationally, I'm in a very different place than I was when I signed up for GTB. I mean, I signed up for GTB with the genuine possibility that a career

in therapy was something that I might want to do. And, you know, and I mentioned this on the last podcast, three months later, I kind of walked into and then chose to leap into a business opportunity, a professional opportunity that's, you know, going to keep me very busy for the next couple of years. And so part of me was thinking, you know, does it make sense? Like, how likely am I to...

to ever pursue this professionally. And the other thing that was on my mind was, know, there was such a personal development, personal growth focus in the first year. Yeah. You know, I think whenever we talked about the application of stuff in therapy, it was a tangent rather than, you know, yeah. And so there was a part of me thinking, well, maybe I've sort of got the bit that I need from the program.

Rick (14:04.214)

And I had a very interesting conversation. So we did these, what are they called? Observer CTO, CTO, client therapist, observer sessions at the, at the residential. so there's a higher year level student being the therapist. The, we were the cannon fodder, the clients, the first years.

and then observers from, you know, staff and various year levels. So I had a really, really interesting session with a fellow there. He was a fourth year. He was just about to finish. And we got chatting on the wall. were you the client? was the client. Yeah, I was the client. And we got chatting on the way, you know, after that session. I asked him about this. So it's like, you know, what's...

You know, I basically told him what I just told you. And he said, look, I actually found that the personal development stepped up in second year. Once you started doing CTO as a therapist, because your personal stuff, your personal triggers, your personal aversions, you know, a client is talking about something that

You know, reminds you of you. Yeah. You know, all of that stuff is coming up live. And so, you know, and there's various things you've got to do and can do, but all of that stuff is coming up live. And so I said, if anything, that sort of self awareness, but also that, um, self regulation around when you do get a trigger like that. Yeah. Um,

steps up a notch. So I was like, Ooh, that's interesting. Where the rubber meets the road. That's where the rubber meets the road. Right. So that was, that was a really, um, interesting kind of thing. And the other insight that I thought you there for the next one, what, what pulls you, what interests you about that side of it? Uh, because why is that exciting? is it exciting to me? Um, because I saw what I got.

Rick (16:13.036)

in personal development and how that's impacted my life and how I am in my life. And it's much better being me now than it was being me a year ago. Or two or three or four or five years ago or six or 10. So it's more about what's happening on the backend. sorry. What's happening on the front end that you can see on the daily basis and the impact that that work has had on how your day to day goes. Yeah. How my relationships unfold with my...

kids, know, romantic relationships, my relationship with myself and how I deal with things that. And I find this really interesting because I know the context of this and I just want to paint the picture a little bit like you're, you're a tech guy. Yeah. So technical engineering. Yeah. Electronics computer systems. And you're in your.

you're working as a founder in a startup in a tech company around AI and a few things like that. About as far as you can get from relational dialogue and connection. So this is what interests me is like, you're in one world over there and then with the gestalt stuff, you're in another world of like,

building your skills in being relational and how you show up in relation. What's how those two worlds intersected or overlap?

Rick (17:58.094)

Okay, one really simple example. I mean, the world is still relational. doesn't matter what you're relating about. So I might be talking with my co-founders about anything. Product decisions, discussions with investors, whatever, anything. We're in constant dialogue.

Rick (18:29.378)

the better I can relate, the smoother that goes for starters. Now that's not, I don't want to put that as like an instrumental purpose. It's not like I'm going to do therapy so that I can be a more effective operator in business. It's not it at all, but the benefit there is really clear. So, know, awareness of...

We were talking about this before, sometimes there are things that I've got a pretty strong belief and the right way to do things. And, you know, obviously I believe that that opinion is grounded in some kind of experience or truth or whatever, but, might not be, could be blind to that too.

Rick (19:25.236)

I think that having a more explicit awareness and acceptance of that about myself puts me in a position to own it. Yep. And when it rubs up against.

Something, another person.

I can put it out there. Yeah. Yeah. have to defend it. I don't have to defend it. I put it, put it out there. So I literally had this conversation with, with one of my partners yesterday. It's like, you know, I'm pretty selective about the hills I choose to die on. And I think this might be one of them. Yep. Right. And that then precipitated a really clear, honest, transparent conversation about this particular thing, which is, you know, it's actually a minor kind of detail really, but for some reason it just kind of, it's like, no, I really feel we have to do this the right

and I don't think what we're doing is the right way at the moment.

Yeah, there are there are effective and catastrophic ways of having those kind of conversations. So there's a there's a really kind of pragmatic. Yeah, I'm interested in what some. John, five years ago, how would the conversation be different to what you had yesterday? Yeah, I might have got a bit. Frustrated that the other person in the conversation couldn't.

Rick (20:50.062)

see how obviously correct I was. Right? Yeah. I, how else might I have handled it?

Rick (21:03.714)

might've been less able to step back from the, the, that, that point of difference and get some perspective that actually it really doesn't matter that much. so that, but you know, but that's, that's about kind of noticing it's like, I'm really digging in on this. What's going on there? Why is, you know, why am I digging in on this?

you know, so reflect on this particular thing. Why, why does this feel so important to me? And I was able to clarify for myself what that was, you know, offline. And then how do I, yeah, this is important to me. How do I communicate that importance and initiate a productive conversation? So yeah, so I might've been less patient and less kind of reflective previously.

and that you're probably more capable to have uncomfortable conversations. Absolutely. Yeah. It's huge. Absolutely. And you know, that's, we always end up waving the Christophe flag here. love it. That's dialogical relating. Yeah. Right. It's...

paying genuine attention to the perspective of other people and using I statements like, I feel this is really important rather than, you know, you're missing the point. don't understand, you know, that kind of stuff. So it's all of that. mean that and that's what I mean.

You know, we live in a relational world and we're relating with all sorts of people about all sorts of things all the time. Yeah. And the better I can do that. That the. know, these little interactions instead of becoming, shit, I'm really not looking forward to this conversation because it's going to be difficult.

Rick (22:59.534)

come out of it instead going, fuck yeah, nice one. We understood each other's perspective. We came up with a plan. Everyone's happy, let's go. This is funny. There's two things I wanna share. One is last night, there was a situation that occurred and just a text exchange. I noticed that it may a couple of years ago would have been heavily apologetic and people pleasing. And instead I was just really matter of

Yep. That's fine. And the truth of the matter is this and this and, the expectation shouldn't really change because of these things for me to text that to someone two or three years ago would have been my worst nightmare. And I back and like, look at you go. You're freaky little boundary boy. That's progress. That's a signpost. You know,

And the other thing that popped up while you were talking was we've been doing induction calls with our new crew down in Melbourne and we speaking to someone this week. And the reason that they originally came to our group was to work out how to help build their business. They've got a small business that they operate. I think they're in the finance or brokerage kind of industries.

And then after they did our first session, she realized that getting to know herself, getting to know her mental and emotional patterns is the best business growth that she can actually do. I'm just like, hell yes. You know, that's like, I literally used to be a business coach in the fitness industry.

And the people that I coach now get more business success than when I was a business coach. I don't know what that says about me or whether it's just the focus on the, the puppeteering of the mental emotional world and how that impacts all your life. The way that you are.

Rick (25:04.686)

Yeah, either that I was a really shit business coach Which could be possible No, but I think it's super interesting around that, know that what is the knock-on effect of getting to know myself with the awareness the acceptance and like that that's a

that's a wicked arsenal to have in your toolkit. Cause you can go into those conversations and be like, yeah, I'll own the bit where this is me, really wanting this to be done a certain way. I'm happy to own that. And this is why, rather than having to like vigorously defend it, you know? Right. And so, you know, consider like tough conversations.

with a partner, right? If you know your triggers and you can feel it because you're thinking about the conversation and you get that body response, right? If you can catch that and you've got that awareness of the kind of things that can set you off,

You can go into that conversation and say, look, this is really triggering to me because X, you know, you can, you can put it out there. and that's also, that requires a certain self-confidence to be vulnerable and to, put your weaknesses on the table.

and trust that the person you're interacting with is not going to exploit that. Yeah. And so then that comes to, you know, choices of who we spend time with. Yeah. Which is also important. But yeah, I think I think that that can kind of. Yeah, I mean, it just works. And I think that the accumulation of evidence is. Is the greatest tool, it's not a tool.

Rick (27:04.488)

What I'm trying to say is like, when we know, when we stop and notice didn't die, got my point across, everything was okay. that didn't get laughed at, didn't get ridiculed. The dispelling of the story. If we can notice that the story is not true and we can do our thing and no, then I think it's.

put a fucking post in the ground and go, okay, noted. Right, right. It's not a tool. It's almost like a platform. You're kind of building up your foundation, right? You're kind of building up that, that base and it does get reinforced every time it, every time it works. And perhaps also it's more robust. You, I think you become more robust to the times when it doesn't work. Don't know about that, but it seems reasonable.

Yeah. Cause there will be dialogue with certain people where, know, it is what it is. Right. So I'm in a very fortunate position where I'm yet apart from my children who I still actively choose to engage with, because I really liked them as people. Yeah.

Rick (28:21.32)

Every relationship that I have in my life is one of choice. I've chosen my partner, chosen my friends, chosen my colleagues. Yep.

Where was I going with that? That is a fortunate position.

not in actually that's not true I still have yeah I'm about to challenge you on that yeah yeah I mean look there's okay I mean I do still yeah I guess what I was gonna where I was going with that is that I'm not having

frequent or even infrequent interactions with really difficult people. So I'm not getting tested on the knockdown of the platform. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like the bit I was going to challenge you on is that those people that you have in your life have all been conscious choices.

Yep. Do you know what mean? the ones that you have in your life now are all conscious choices of like, yes, you are a person that I want to connect with. I feel like all the tick boxes. it's not, it's not by accident that that's your environment. No. Yeah.

Rick (29:52.31)

And it's also like part of that environment is shaped by our experience when it wasn't great, when it wasn't connected, when it wasn't because we those I know from speaking for me now, the circumstances of being in environments and not being connected with the other person and having resentments and all the stuff that comes with that. look back now and that's probably been my greatest educator, my greatest

Oh, how am I going in there? How am I showing up in this? am I, how am I contributing to this? So for me, I have such a big pull towards connection now because previously I felt so disconnected and I had a role in that. Yeah. Yeah. Do know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And, I, you know, we were talking before, you know, sort of

intimate relationship history is a very, it's a rich mine of reflection for me. I've been, I've been, you know, I've been divorced for just over seven years and I've had a couple of, you know, reasonably substantial relationships since then. yeah, I often reflect on

Rick (31:21.326)

You what I brought to the things that, you know, the frictions in those and the circumstances and decisions that led to the end of those relationships. So it's a pretty rich mind. but there's also, even with that, I just keep saying the willingness to look. You know, yeah. Step one awareness. Yup. Are you willing to look? Yup. Are you willing to look? Yeah.

So to close the loop on this interesting little spiral.

Yeah, I'm still not convinced that practicing as a therapist is in my future. But it doesn't have to be for me to come back for more. Yeah. To keep building on this relational muscle. Keep building on it. Yeah. Right. The other insight I had was that...

Rick (32:23.202)

I'm GTB one year at a time. So I can do year two. And then if the business is getting really busy and I'm struggling to do both. can pause it. So it's not this all or nothing kind of thinking. And it was a shift away from that all or nothing thinking that got me to take the first step.

I mean, you this was my thing I said, said last time about, you know, what is it if you, the view doesn't change if you don't, if you stay in the same place. Right. So if I viewed that as I am committing to four years and I must do this, all this money, but it's not how it works. Just take the step, you know, breaking it into, into bits. and, um, yeah, if I stop after year two, that's time and money and energy well spent. If I go all way through. Yeah.

It's kind of loosening the grip a little bit on the outcome.

Yeah, that's cool.

And I'm just thinking like, one of the things I admire about you is your ability to be really proactive in shaping your life around the things that bring you joy and that...

Rick (33:42.892)

You don't accept the default. You create what you shaped your life. I am shaping my life these days. Yeah. So it hasn't always been the case. Yeah. So we've known each other for probably a year now. Yeah. Let's call it a year. Yeah. And, so the version of John that I know is, you know, the guy that decided to learn to ride a motorbike at, you know, at 50 at 50 get his license by bike.

And even just that is just this like, it's that question of like, brings me Joyce brings me joy. And then I see people, I see you like going out and chasing that. you've just this Christmas you've been over in New Zealand for 10 days doing a bike touring around New Zealand. like it's.

the theme of like what's after the professional development. Like how do we use this new version of us and what do we do with it? I see you doing something with it. I am. I should sort of bracket this by saying that, you know, a year ago, two years ago.

I had all of the same opportunity and all of the same resources available to me as I have today.

and I wasn't doing any of this stuff. So what does that mean? What's different? Right? And I attribute a lot of that to, you know, personal development in the last year and, you know, getting over stuckness and getting over that.

Rick (35:40.586)

that fixation on the result rather than the process sort of vibe because yeah I could have done all of this five years ago I I mean okay logistically something is a little bit different the kids are older they don't you know so that's a lot more flexible but it's you know but otherwise so yeah look I

Got the motorbike license because I just remembered that it was something that I'd once wanted to do and then forgotten about. Yeah. And that was enough. I do like learning stuff. I like being, I like having skills. like sort of being. Yep. Competent at stuff and being able to do stuff. Yep.

that brings me a lot of satisfaction. So, and I actually really like structured learning. loved, you know, I've done a barista course and I've done, you know, scuba diving and learn how to ride a motorbike. Like I actually really enjoy being trained in interesting things. the acquisition of skills and the refinement of skills. do you get from that?

Rick (36:52.674)

better coffee at home. Yeah. Better road trips. The ability to, you know, so I did a refresher dive just before Christmas because you're supposed to dive every 12 months just to keep your currency. And I wasn't, and you know, what's that? That's something fun that I can do if I'm on holidays or traveling in a part of the world where the diving's good. Yeah. So it's not like I'm out diving every weekend or I'm out riding every weekend, but it's, it's just sort of a. Yep.

Right. So, yes, I just got I just did the motorbike thing because it was something I'd always wanted to do and I had forgotten about. And look, you know, when you're married, mortgage, young kids, you know, riding is a risky endeavor. can you can manage that risk to a certain extent. The way that you ride has a big impact, I believe, on your safety. But there's still the random. Yeah. You know, so you've got to accept that. So so, you know,

So, you know, there's other reasons that might've called that. So I just, I can't. I'm just, I'm interested in like giving yourself permission to have time to do these things rather than be committing more time to work or how that aspect of it has changed. Well, that's what I'm saying though, is that, you know, I've been...

Rick (38:15.886)

functionally underemployed is my term. I've been functionally underemployed for, I had been for a couple of years. I had the time, but I was burning it. would, you know, I was working part time by choice and I had all the time in the world to do anything.

I would spend entire afternoons lying on my bed scrolling Reddit. So yeah, nice one. Right? So, So, you know, I don't know if I was actively giving myself permission to do that or I was just avoiding something else possibly. But yes, now I do actively sort of choose and I don't, I don't feel

Rick (39:14.894)

Okay, here's an example. I went into this business partnership with a clear statement to my co-founders that...

I've got a life and you know, I, that's important to me. There are things that I want to do and that I'm going to keep doing because if I'm forced to stop doing them, it's going to make me unhappy. It's not, it just doesn't end well. and, and I structured that into the way that I bought into the company, into the size of my shareholding in the company. so I, you know, I put all of that upfront.

And so now, you know, it's Thursday. think it's Thursday. Yep. It's Thursday. Normally I would be working, but I'm not. down here in, in Moolambar and Condong recording a podcast and I've got no qualms about that. Yeah. All right. Um, so I sort of created the space and now I'm, I don't take the piss, but I don't apologize. Yeah. And it's interesting cause it's

It's one of things that's been popping up a bit over the last couple of months is talking to people. And like I mentioned before, we're doing this program Melbourne called making space and we're asking the question of like, what do want to make space for? And so many people are like, I have no idea because that reality has not been presented to me. The idea of space for myself is so foreign and.

already the gift of just like put some thought into it just what's what's a you know just throw some shit at the wall and see what sticks but even before that like the step before that of even getting an idea of what to throw at the wall is like can i give myself permission to have two hours of nothing and see what drops in a lot of people are a hard no to that

Rick (41:11.596)

From a comfortability point of view, I couldn't, the kids, the husband, the job, the family, all the stuff of doing for others, but to forge out an hour or two for yourself is a challenge for a lot of people, especially when it's not doing, if it's just being. Like what does it look like to sit down for an hour and sit on your back deck or like,

Like I need, I feel better when I'm achieving things. Do know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, I...

I'm bit of a doer, I'm not very good at sitting still.

Rick (42:02.126)

I'm just contrasting that to spending an afternoon lying on my bed scrolling social media. that's a different kind of, it's a different kind of doing. It's a sort of an avoidant doing, I think, in a way it's not. I mean, what I did, and this was this was prompted by someone I was close to at the time is I wrote a list and I dumped into that list.

It was kind of a, you know, life wishes and dreams kind of list bucket list. You could have a bucket, bit of a bucket listy kind of thing. And I did it actually on a plane trip. I was flying back from a holiday in New Zealand with the kids. Um, and so I was just typing it into my phone and,

That was a really interesting exercise. That's where the motorbike thing popped back up.

and

I think the framing around that idea is important. It's not a to-do list. not like I think bucket list has a bit of an outcome sense to it. It's like, are the things I need to do before I die so that I can die happy. It's more like, are some of the things that have just caught my interest? Or what are some things that I've started that I'd like to take further? What excites me? What brings me joy? What excites me? What brings me joy?

Rick (43:31.438)

So that was a fun exercise. I revisit that list and actually like not very often, but I think the last time I went back to it, I thought, shit, yeah, did that. wow, yeah, I did that too. So that was, you know, that's a way that you can easily fill an hour that's still doing, you're still getting that little activity buzz. But I'm not very good at just sitting down and.

looking at the horizon. yeah. But I even think that the whole list thing, I kind of, a lot of my stuff I look through, whether it's for me or for other people, is like through the frame of worthiness, like, and validation, that they're big themes that roll around. You help me understand how a worthiness and validation frame fits there. Well,

Often people do things for other people, whether it's work, family, partners, there's a, there's a unconscious benefit to the, the role they play, whether it's people pleasing, whether it's, I feel like I'm loved when I'm doing things for you, like all like legit, like, know, and then it's, I find it interesting.

I actually see it as an expression of self-love or self-trust or when you can do something for yourself. And even if it was sitting down for an hour and writing a fucking list of what brings you joy or what potentially could or what would make you smile if you did it. That's an expression of, oh, I'm worth it.

I can spend time on myself and invest time on myself and not have to invest all my time into other people to make me feel good. And there's a, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's almost like a sort of a radical selfishness in a way. mean, there's a trade off here, right? Because, you know, if I was married and paying off a mortgage and I've got a two year old and a four year old,

Rick (45:43.63)

Yeah, carving out space. to do. There's shit to do. know, carving out space to, you know, bugger off for two weeks on a motorcycle would be a pretty radical act. you, there's, there's, there's the reality of context. Yeah, it's dependent on like, it's dependent on context, but you know, actually interesting. I discovered this, um, immediately post my separation. Right? So the kids were, um, only about 12 and.

11 and 13, something like that. And so my ex-wife and I went to a shared 50-50 thing. And what I found was that the space, and I'm not advocating breaking up families for this by any means, but what I found was that having, I mean, we didn't literally do week on week off. was a bit more subtle than that, but.

having time all to myself and my life and then time when I was full-time dad.

Rick (46:58.298)

I had more to bring as a parent when the kids were with me because I wasn't you know looking at my watch or thinking Guru because I'd had this other space in my life.

where I could pursue what was important to me. Now I have to believe that's possible to create within the context of a, you know, an ongoing relationship and co-parenting all that sort of stuff. But that was my experience. And it was really stark to me that I was able to be more present with my kids when I'd had that space. The cup was fuller. Yeah. I completely agree. And again, not advocating to separate for that, but my experience of

Separation was the same. was the That my biggest fear was losing the connection my son. Yeah me too. And what happened is it just increased it exponentially and I think there's a lot of what you're talking about of being able to Be alone for the first time in that week week on week off scenario What do I want? What do I need? How do I want to eat? What's my movement look like? It's just the little thing the basics. Yeah

What practices do I have? What do I not have? You know, how much scrolling do I want to do it? Like I got the opportunity to step out of the dynamic of the family and work out how to honor the bits that I needed to show up for everyone else. And I think that's possible. I know that's possible in relationship because I have clients and friends that it all the time. And I think we might've been mentioned this in the last podcast around like this.

balance between honoring self and honoring other. And it doesn't need to be heavily outweighed, but I think if we can have the goal of like, can we get closer to spending more time to honor ourselves as equal to honoring other? Like that might seem like a lot for someone, cause it, you know, it's probably 90, 10 at the moment. might've been 95, five of 5 % self, 95 % other.

Rick (49:08.014)

depending on circumstances. But it's like, can we just level the scales a little bit on what does moving to 20 % may look like? Does that mean I, you know?

I asked for some things that I wouldn't have previously asked for in regards to, I also ain't need time to do this. I'm going to sit in my car and scroll before I walk into the house. Like whatever, like it has so many different faces. But I think the theme under it is like what.

What do I need? am I, cannot give myself permission to explore what I need and to try it on and to throw it against the wall and to, you know, we've talked about motorbike riding, but it could just be like, I just need to read a fucking book. It could be, need to start a podcast. Yeah. Cause it's just interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um,

Rick (50:01.356)

thought and it's gone. It's right. It'll come back. Yeah. But you mentioned before and like how does this link to validation and worthiness and all the rest of it? That's it. Because it's also a bit scary because you're asking yourself the question. Well, who am I and what's important to me when I'm not just running around and I'm not laying the train tracks in mom, brother, colleague, son, employer. Yep. When I'm not all those hats. When I'm not all of those things, who am I?

That's just me.

Yeah. Yeah. Fucking so many people struggle with that question. Yeah, of course.

And I think there's a, you know, there's a, there's a strong narrative. I mean, I think we see this in the, some of the destructive patterns of traditional gender roles about men as provider and women as kind of care, that sort of stuff. Right. look at, you know, sort of mental health impacts of, you know, men becoming unemployed and losing that provider role. Yeah. Look at.

you know, it's sort of the empty nest kind of syndrome, you know, when the kids no longer need you all the time that, that sort of thing. So I think these, I think these themes kind of pop up at some of those really critical major life event times as well. I think there's an industry, a little sub industry retirement coaching. Yeah. you know, and there's lots been written about, about that as well.

Rick (51:43.276)

that hard stop from full-time work to home all the time. Super, super jarring. Yeah. Because, you know, and you know, if you've got predisposition, there's the pokies, there's booze, there's all sorts of destructive ways of filling that time. And I think with this, like, it's, it sounds nice in theory, but it's pretty hard to, implement when we've been conditioned in the roles to be so

entrenched in them, it can feel hard to be like, I don't know what's going on when I'm not all those things. So I think if we can pour in a bit of a dose of grace and kindness, be like, give yourself permission to not know. And let's not, let's not loop that into a shame spiral. It's okay. It makes complete fucking sense. don't know. Cause you've been nailing all those other roles, but it doesn't mean that.

You are all those other roles and that's how it's going to be forever. There's an evolution and you know, yeah. And I think if that can be done with a little bit of kindness to yourself, to yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. In regards to, fuck. I've lost myself so much. I don't even know who I am. Partially true, but also you've just been focused on doing a good job for the bits of life that were needed. No, obviously there's, there's borders and murkiness there, but

Yeah, and I think another thing that can play there is if you're used to being good at stuff, you've got to give yourself the freedom to suck a little bit. I'm smiling. You've got to be, you've got to like, and I relate to this, you know, I talked before, like acquiring your skills and you know, when I'm putting cables away, I wrap them the way that the professionals wrap them and

You know, I did a barista course partly because I just want to make the best coffee I can at home. You know, so I relate to this. I like to do everything. I have this expression sort of, what do I say, like competent amateur. I like to do everything to at least competent amateur level, right? You know, home handyman stuff, DIY, whatever. But when you start something new, by definition, you suck at it and you've got to be willing to suck for a while. And if you've been amazing at other parts of your life, that is not a great feeling.

Rick (54:07.766)

Right, so maybe that's a takeaway. Maybe we should do something every day that we suck at. You know, because if you're not...

Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. But I think it's the step before that is like, can I be comfortable being a bit shit? Yep. Being a bit shit at this. Yep. having the white belt on and then progressing to the whatever the next one is, brown, think. Yeah. Blue. And this, there's a nice little loop across to vulnerability there as well. One of the things I said to my co-founders before I joined the business is guys,

I haven't been tech hands on tools for 10 years. I've been doing tech adjacent, obviously, but I hadn't been down in the trenches for 10 years. I hadn't worked extensively in the technologies that the company was about. hadn't worked extensively on the software tools and languages. And it's like, I'm going to suck for a little while. But you own that upfront. Right. there's freedom in that. There is. There is. And I look back now, you know,

I've been doing this for six months. was doing some fun, deep, intricate tech stuff the other day. it's like, you know, how far those skills have come in six months. It's not like I've gone from computing to classical guitar. It's all still adjacent. I'm building on a big bass. But yeah, I was just looking at it. Nice one. I'm getting better.

You got your brown belt pretty quickly after having some history. do they go? White, brown, blue, something like that? I got to blue belt in Taekwondo years ago. it's, it's interesting the amount of people have a fear of change. And a lot of the thing that's under the fear of change is I don't want other people to see that I suck at something. Yeah, I think there's a lot of that. Yeah, I think there's a lot of that. And that's why I think these, you know, carving out space for yourself.

Rick (56:12.418)

Yeah. That needs to be something. I think this feels reasonable. It needs to be something that you can suck at. Yeah. No one wants to get a new job and suck at the job because people looking at you and you get paid and you know, that's a bit, that's really uncomfortable. I understand why that is limiting in terms of sort of career and professional choices. you know, study.

of course you're to suck on your stuff because you don't know it. That's what you're there for. so,

Rick (56:54.318)

It's that permission for that big beginner's mind. Yeah. Yeah beginners mind. That's a strong one. Yeah Yeah It's like me not really giving a shit that I've got the tech guy coming down and my internet's not working and my technology didn't work Yeah, we fixed it. We fixed it. Yeah, I Accept that I'm shit at that And look if we hadn't got it working and we just sat around and had a chat and I went home they'd be fine too. Yeah. Yeah

There's, I don't know how we're going for time. And then I don't know if there's a, if there's a sort of a theme you want to try and wrap around to, but there's something that's.

just this little tiny thing. And it's obvious when I say it, but I've just been noticing a bit in myself and actually in others about starting new things without necessarily a goal in mind.

but just because maybe it's just a notion that you dropped in the busyness of life or whatever. For example, your motorbike. Motorbike riding, a good friend of mine decided a year and a half ago, he wanted to learn how to play the piano. know, not for any instrumental purpose. Well, there's a pun, but yeah, which is so with the motorbikes, I just showed up.

did the training course, I was nervous as hell. You know, remember the first time doing like 30 Ks an hour on the little, you know, kiddie track. Oh my God, I feel so fast, you know, and then first time on the road and then first time at a hundred Ks an hour. It's just like, you know, um, so I just showed up and didn't really have a goal in mind other than just get licensed. then I think I stumbled on, um,

Rick (58:55.95)

motor camping, which is just strapping a bunch of camping gear to the back of your bike and off you go. Yeah. I was like, Oh, that could be interesting. And, know, I didn't have a bike that was, you know, it's not one of these kinds of things you see with the aluminium boxes and ones that people go, go hardcore adventuring on. I was like, Oh yeah. Well, there's a little rack on the back of my bike. And so I bought this cheap duffel bag motorbike thing off, you know, eBay or something, Amazon and, um,

And I went motor camping. I had a crack. And it was amazing. I spent a night in a deserted campground outside of Glen Innes. Had the place to myself. You know, it was beautiful, little river and fire and all that sort of stuff. You know, tackled some some roads that, you know, some gravel roads, which was new. And I just sort of took it slow. I said, yeah, OK, I can do this. And I just had a crack.

Yeah. And, you know, I went once or twice more. And then this trip over Christmas to New Zealand, like that came together at the last minute because I was sitting, sitting at home thinking, well, work's going to be shut down. I don't want to just sit around doing nothing or just working. Yeah. know, Brisbane heat humidity. So let's go somewhere. So my first idea, I saw something on a on a sort of a food cooking.

stream that I see occasionally, it's like about Luxor in Malaysia. was like, yeah, all right, I'm to go to Malaysia and have a real Luxor. And then I was like, why not? know, the flights were reasonable. And I started looking at that. I was like, Oh, I if I could ride a motorbike in Malaysia. And it all just got a bit complex and expensive and it was going be a long trip. So I pulled up this app that I've got where you can just click on a city and it just shows all of the outbound air routes from that city.

So, you know, if I'm here, where can I go in one hop? So I clicked on Brisbane. So where could I go one flight from Brisbane? So I don't have to change and that's the stuff. there was, you know, there a flight to Christchurch in New Zealand and I checked the price. It was pretty cheap. And then I Googled Christchurch motorbike rental. no, then I Googled, you know, New Zealand motorcycle riding. And you know, it's just like beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, stunning.

Rick (01:01:21.838)

Bike rental. Yep. It's bike rental. It's reasonable. Yeah. All right. I'm going to New Zealand. I'm going to the motor camp for, for 10 days. And so I just did. And it was amazing. It one of the best trips I've ever done. But you know, back to my point, I didn't have a purpose. That wasn't the intention. intention. That wasn't the intention. It was just like, I'm going to see what happens. So, so, and this, this, this good friend of mine with the piano, you know, he's, started out just learning the piano and now then he's got interested in

sort of a little bit of composition and then he's, you know, that naturally leads to kind of a bit of recording kind of stuff. And, know, now he's kind of collaborating with people he's met through, you know, social kind of music sort of groups. And so the whole, like everything is like this. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You think, motorcycling, that's a thing. I know that's not a thing. That's a universe of things. And music is a universe of things. And you can, if you, if you're in that sort of

beginner's mind, that playful freedom to explore kind of state of mind and you've carved out that space or you've got that space. You can just be sort of curiosity and play led and you never know where you're end up. Yeah. And I think that's the thing is like not being attached to the outcome allows the flow and the freedom and the, I didn't expect that. You get surprised by the universe. Right. Right. That's that, that outcome attachment is huge. Yeah.

There's a beautiful little loop back to it because it's all about motorbikes. I'm becoming that guy. there's a beautiful little loop back to that though. Something I realized I was talking to one of our GTB colleagues at the residential actually the last last day. motorbike riding for me is completely journey oriented, not destination. Right. So it's all about.

what's the experience gonna be like during the journey? Where I end up is really secondary. And that, for example, drove my decision to drive this morning instead of ride. Because if I ride, I would have gone the nice pretty back way. That's two and a half hours instead of one and a half. And, you know, I, for various reasons, like, no, I'm just gonna drive this because it's totally different experience. yeah, it's about...

Rick (01:03:43.278)

You know, it, and I think most motorcycle riders who, know, beyond those who are using it for commuting, it genuinely does just become about, what's the experience like on your way somewhere? And then that sounds like it's got some real parallels to how you approach different parts of your life. I'm just thinking about like study.

that's not outcome based. It's like, I'm here for the present moment and what I'm getting in the present. I don't know what that looks like. I'm just going to show up. First year's done, I'm just going to show up the second year on the first day and see what happens. Right. Right. And I think I talked about this last time, most uncharacteristically for me, I dropped my personal expectations about academic achievement in that course. And I just did a good enough job to...

to not be ashamed of the work that I was submitting and to pass. you know, that's kind of what I did, you know. You know, so was getting sort of 70, 75 % sort of grades for all of the work. Or as Janelle, my partner puts it, you know, that's a distinction, you know, it's still 25 % wrong. I know she's going to listen to this. That's pretty funny. Hi Janelle. Yeah, yeah, hi Janelle.

Rick (01:05:08.462)

That was again, dropping an expectation about an outcome. Identity. The old you. Right, right, right, right. Having to kind of optimize and excel at all that sort of stuff. Yeah. Yeah, it was great. It was quite freeing to Yeah, that's the thing. Passion assignment out, make it a little bit better. Ask ChatGPT for some critique, tweak a few things. Yeah. And just hand it in and be happy with doing okay.

Because what I'm thinking about is like the little cages that we build around ourselves based on expectation or obligation or what we think we should do or what others we think we want others to think about us. And what happens when we like bash some of those bars down, you know, it's just like, don't know where this is going to go, but let's just find out. Rather than I fucking have to get to there. And everything that's involved with I have to get to there or I should. Or I need to present in a certain way or these things are.

beyond what are reasonable obligations and ties to the people around us, these are the things that are expected of me. Yeah. I wrote a welcome, welcome. I wrote a welcome to 2025 email to my little newsletter. Yeah. And it was, sat on it for about a week and it was just...

welcome, welcome to your, weird, kooky and imperfect welcoming your weird, kooky and imperfect self to 2025. that's what it really feels like. think for me, all of this comes back to can we accept all of us and all the imperfections might.

crazy little bits of kookiness, the things, the Hills I want to die on, you know, can I welcome them in? You go, this is fucking me people. This is me. what you get. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, I'm here for that because it's the opposite of what we've been talking around with, like, have these identities. I have to do this. It's going to be that outcome. It's like, this is me. And it doesn't mean you have to throw your hands in the air and not try. Absolutely not. If it frees you up to try. feel definitely. So

Rick (01:07:25.09)

I feel like that's a bit of my theme this year. the study and the podcast from last year has kind of solidified that of just like, it's so important for me personally to accept me who I, as I am. And I've noticed that the triggers are decreasing because I can love on my shittiness as well as my good bits. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, a hundred percent. Yeah. I can see you. So.

smiling and glowing as you say that. It's relieving. It's a relief. It's a relief. fuck. It's like, yeah, I can be a finicky bastard sometimes. Yeah. All right. Yeah.

Rick (01:08:12.47)

All right. What do you reckon? Finicky bastard. What's something you're excited about this year? gee.

Rick (01:08:27.32)

kind of everything. Got some motorbike trips planned. Janelle and I are doing a week in Tassie in March. We're speculating about something else somewhere else in kind of May, June. Work is super interesting and exciting. sorts of all sorts of exciting things happen there. And just a really just such a good vibe.

in the company and with the co-founders. just, know the bits that we're good at. We know the bits we're not so good at collaborating. Like it's just a joy, honestly, just being in that kind of small dynamic, agile stage with people that I respect and we just relate. So, so that's, that's great. know, and I'm sometimes I'm down in the technical weeds and other times I'm big picture concept. So that's, that's, that's great. You know, like I wake up every morning and it's like,

Yeah, I better have some breakfast before I start working. And it has been decades since I felt like that. Yeah, right. So that's, that's such a nice place to be. Um, you know, the kids are just growing and getting more competent. You know, my youngest is on his learners and he'll be going for his license as soon as he can, you know, and he's just getting, see him getting better. And I just see them kind of growing and maturing and developing a bit of independence and a bit of sort of identity.

seeing myself getting better at accepting those identities, even though they're not always strictly aligned with mine. Getting over the mini me syndrome, I think as a parent is a thing. Differentiation part of it. The differentiation, right? And being okay with that and celebrating that. What else am I excited about? Looking forward to going back to GTB, a little bit apprehensive. It's going to be interesting as we move into the, you know, the therapisty kind of role.

I'm sure you and I will end up on opposite sides of the CTO chair this year. That'll be fun. Yeah, we'll just do it like this. That's true.

Rick (01:10:32.682)

Yeah, yeah, I'm just kind of different. Different part of the question. Okay. What are you not excited about for this year? As in what am I averse to about this year? I've never asked that before. I just thought about it then.

I

Rick (01:10:52.471)

I have completely disengaged from American politics. I just can't look. And I can't do anything about it.

Rick (01:11:03.854)

What else?

Rick (01:11:08.78)

Nothing comes to mind. Cool. But I'm in a very fortunate position where, you know, I've chosen my work, I've chosen my life. So who knows what's going to get thrown at me, but I'd like to believe. What surprises the universe will show up. Yeah, that's right. But I'd like to believe that I'll handle that stuff better than I might have in

Yep, I certainly handle the little micro irritations, you know that my luggage rack broke on the way back from the motor camping trip Last weekend and like okay. Well, I guess I've of sorts on me out, you know, we sort it out kept going So I feel like I'm better at that stuff in the past. I would have So I'd like to believe that when inevitably life throws me a wobbly I'd like to believe I'll be in a better position to handle it. But yeah, you there's nothing I'm really

averse to cool this year. What about you? What are you excited about? I'm excited about learning to use my new Argentinian barbecue. my God. You people used to see this thing. I'm so jealous. You need to post a picture of it. We bought this house and there's a couple of things in here that we would not have spent the money on, but we are very happy that the previous owner did.

And the wood fired Argentinian barbecue is one of them. It's amazing. So, the little boy that just wants to start a fire. He's going to be. Well, I told you we're to come and camp in your backyard by the river and then, then, we can, can fight each other and Janelle actually, she's a fire queen too. We'll fight each other for stick poking. Nice. Okay. Yeah. Well, I think this weekend we're going to, there's a little wood fired pizza oven in.

in the barbie. we're going to get that crank in. And I'm just like the simplicity of that sort of stuff. Um, there's been a lot of hustling. So, It's kind of earned a bit of rest. Let's just make a fire and cut the grass and sit on the deck and watch the sunset. Yeah. Nice. Um, so I think what I'm saying is I'm more excited about just being rather than doing. Yeah. Nice. And there's still, there's still a lot of being happening this year. It's pretty full, but um,

Rick (01:13:29.292)

I'm as excited just about the being. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. It's that's an interesting way of coming at it. I was coming more from a doing perspective, but I like that idea. But what is it about the being? Yeah. Yeah. Might get pretty fucking bored, but who says, you know, well, know, with the right mindset, boredom can be a really fertile space for creativity. Yeah. I'm pretty good with boredom. Yeah. Right.

Any any versions, any things that you're feeling avoidant about this year? You've just buried a couple of avoidant topics, right? You know, the old house flood. Yeah, yeah. that housing chapter that feels good to what we were talking about. We did a bit of an end of year kind of over a few drinks at news like review and looking forward, looking back kind of thing. And we're just glad that

housing stress will not be a stress this year. Like obviously we've got to pay the mortgage, looking for a house, you know, all of that stuff that I'm just happy that that will not be the core stress this year. So yeah, happy that that's not there. And probably the other side of that is being able to apply some consistent energy into looking after myself.

from a health point of view. That was just the stuff that got thrown to the side. So yeah, just bought myself a little home gym that arrived soon and put that up under the house and get back to some old, you know, just to have a gym. So if you watch this space, it'll be, it'll be ripped wrecking. I don't know. I think, I don't think I've ever been ripped maybe once or twice in the CrossFit days, but yeah, I'll just be happy to be able to fit into me size 30.

shorts again, the bars a little bit lower these days. No, I have an unofficial goal. want to be in pretty good Nick. Um, when I turned 50, yeah. Right. When's that? Oh, it's not for another 200 bit years. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So 48 in April. So I'll just chip away at that. um, again, that's like,

Rick (01:15:56.238)

that got pushed away to make sure everything else was sorted. So it's that whole thing of self and other. It's crazy how quickly fitness develops with repetition. Just crazy. I started running last year a couple of times a week and I went from like 35 minutes, 5k to 25 minutes in a couple of months, like not by doing anything other than just doing it. I know my body can do it. Yeah, you can do it. It's really nice discovering what your body can do. Having the space and the time and the, the, um,

The intent. Yep. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. That's me, man. Well, I'm looking forward to being a part of it. Yeah. It's going to be a fun year. Yeah. Thank you for battling the storms and for MacGyvering the shit out of the tech today. Pleasure. I'm pretty, pretty pleased with myself about that. Yeah. Yeah. will, we will see you for round three at some stage, at some stage, if you'd like me back. Definitely. Awesome. Thanks, Rick. Thanks, mate.